‘Barbie’ to ‘Killers of the Flower Moon’: How Rodrigo Prieto shot both

We’re back and the Oscar nominations are in! On this week’s episode of “The Envelope” we bring you not two, but three interviews, with awards season veterans and a newcomer as well.

First we talk to Rodrigo Prieto, the cinematographer for two tonally different films: “Barbie” and “Killers of the Flower Moon.” Then we hear from Diane Warren, who earned her 15th Oscar nomination for “The Fire Inside,” the song she wrote for Eva Longoria’s feature debut, “Flamin’ Hot.” Lastly, French director Justine Triet discusses the feminist themes in her movie “Anatomy of a Fall” and why she continues to speak up about her values.

Mark Olsen: Welcome to “The Envelope” podcast. I’m Mark Olsen.

Yvonne Villarreal: I’m Yvonne Villarreal.

Shawn Finnie: I’m Shawn Finnie.

Olsen: This is the first time the three of us have been together since the Oscar nominations happened. And Shawn, this kind of Phase 2, the sort of post-nominations period, is this an exciting part of the year or do you feel like the air starts going out of the balloon now?

Finnie: I think it’s an exciting time of the year. I mean, there’s two different phases. There’s nominations where each branch [votes], actors vote on actors, writers on writers, and then now it opens up to the entire membership. With the membership growing exponentially, it’s like at 11,000 now, it’s the most global it’s ever been. I feel like the new voices, we’re starting to see that in best picture and just the nominations alone. I’m excited. I think it’s a surprising time. Anything can happen.

Villarreal: It’s a lot of screeners to get through though, right?

Finnie: Yes, it is a lot of screeners to get through.

Olsen: Yvonne, you and I were actually at the Oscar nominees luncheon.

Finnie: You all were at the nominees luncheon, which is one of my favorite events. Yvonne, who did you speak to?

Villarreal: Well, I didn’t actually go inside the luncheon. I felt I was very excluded from the cool kids’ table there. But yes, Mark and I had a room where we were doing interviews when we could get them. I spoke with cinematographer Rodrigo Prieto, and it was amazing. When you talk about someone that can really mix it up here, you went from doing the cinematography for a film like “Barbie,” which is so opulent and popped with color, and then you went to something like “Killers of the Flower Moon,” which is so stark and haunting. So it was nice to talk to him about switching things up and also just his collaboration with Martin Scorsese. This is their fourth film together, and “Killers of the Flower Moon” is what he’s up for as a nominee. So I really enjoyed our conversation. But you [Shawn] got somebody that has delivered so many of the songs of our lives. But you didn’t sing.

Finnie: I spoke to the Diane Warren, her 15th nomination. She already has an honorary Oscar at home. She says the Oscar is lonely. So she’s going for it again, which I’m super excited about. She’s the only nomination from the film directed by Eva Longoria, “Flamin’ Hot.” Diane talks to me about her process, about her life, but also just about why she still does what she does. And you think about a nomination 15 times, what that takes. She posted on her social where she’s up [the night before nominations are announced], she’s walking through a whole process. She’s like, “I don’t sleep, I get up, I’m nervous, I’m shaking.” And I’m like, “Wow, it still means so much.” So I love.

Villarreal: But you didn’t have her make a theme song for this podcast. That’s a missed opportunity.

Olsen: You know what that would cost?

Finnie: I have failed, I have failed us. You know, I’m gonna call in a favor later, but she did sing acoustic. She sang to me the song acoustic, and I was trying to be cool on camera and not ugly cry. But I was like, “It’s cool, Diane. This is really cool.” It was amazing. But you spoke to another dynamic force, Justine Triet.

Olsen: Justine, she’s the director and co-writer of “Anatomy of a Fall.” She’s been nominated for directing, for the screenplay, and then the film has been nominated for best picture, and she’d won the Palme d’Or at Cannes. She is one of only a few women who’s won that prize. She’s been on the rise in France over the past few years. This is actually her fourth feature film, but relatively unknown here in the States. And so the way that she’s just kind of broken through with this film, it’s an exciting courtroom thriller. So it’s a great combination of both: a courtroom drama that American audiences can understand, but it’s set in France. And so there’s something kind of exciting about it and different about it too. It’s just been really exciting to see her shine in the spotlight this season.

Villarreal: Look, this is a really fun episode for us. We got three great conversations to bring you. Stay tuned. Coming up next is my interview with Rodrigo.

Villarreal: Rodrigo, thanks so much for joining us.

Rodrigo Prieto: Oh my pleasure. Thank you.

Villarreal: Well, I know, “Killers of the Flower Moon” is the fourth film that you’ve done with Martin [Scorsese] since 2013, “Wolf of Wall Street,” and I know “Raging Bull” was such a seminal film for you. So I’m curious, what do you remember about that first-ever meeting with Martin? If you were recreating the moment for a movie of your life, set up the shot for me.

Prieto: I think the scene would start with the little figure of Hugo, the little robot, because that’s in his living room. And I remember sitting there waiting for him and the robot was there. And so I felt like the robot, a little awkward and a little stiff. But immediately, as soon as Scorsese came into the room, the warmth came in with him. He was very charming, disarming, and I just felt at ease. And it’s also the kind of thing where you have really nothing to lose. Because I didn’t expect to be making movies with Martin Scorsese. It wasn’t something like, “Yeah, that’s one thing, I’m going to do it, that’s a goal.” So I had nothing to lose, but I think the lighting would be soft. It wouldn’t be warm, the color of the light, but it’d be soft and easy.

Villarreal: OK.

Prieto: But the actor that plays me, I would direct him to be a little nervous and maybe say a couple of bad jokes. That’s sort of what I do.

Villarreal: Did you say bad jokes?

Prieto: I’m sure I did. I don’t remember about that.

Villarreal: Fast forward to “Killers of the Flower Moon.” How has that dynamic evolved between you two? I’m sure there’s still nerves, but the shorthand or the comfortability. And when you’re first meeting for something like this project, do you dive right in or is it sort of — we ease our way into this?

Prieto: Well, every movie has been very different, just thematically, but also the way we’ve approached it and how we’ve come up with the visual ideas. “Killers of the Flower Moon” was a film that required very deep research. All of us involved in the production really didn’t know much about the Osage or really anybody, so we listened. That was a main thing, and I observed how Scorsese was so deeply involved in learning. So I said, “I’m going to do the same thing and ask questions.” And for me, it was learning how the Osage relate to their surroundings and to light. And that was an important thing that I actually incorporated into scenes with them, with sunlight where the sunlight is, the position of the sun, photographing the sun, things of that sort. So it was a long process of experimentation with Scorsese that we tested many things visually and came up with a design very little by little.

Villarreal: How is it in the moment, working through something with him, as he’s saying, “OK, let’s block this. I’m going to be Ernest [Burkhart]. You’re going to be Mollie [Kyle].” Does it go in that deep or what is the process like?

Prieto: Yeah, I played Mollie most of the time with him and he designs the shots during pre-production. He separates himself from the day-to-day moments of production for at least a week and maybe more, sometimes two weeks. He sits down by himself in the motel room and plots the shots and on the script itself, does annotations and sometimes little diagrams or drawings. And then he’ll share that over my cell phone with the assistant director. That’s kind of the first step, it becomes my Bible in terms of what we’re going to do on each scene, shot-wise. It’s up to me then to define the focal length and the background and the angles, but it’s all based on his design. And then on set, he really is very open to what the actors are feeling and saying and doing. And we always respect that. And then if an actor has an idea that maybe wasn’t what we planned, usually we’ll do what the actor is feeling. He’s very flexible in that sense, open to improvisation or new dialogue or whatever happens. And I think some of the most powerful moments in his movies come from that. And this wasn’t the exception. There are things in the film that I love and we weren’t planning on it. And then we went that way and there it is.

Villarreal: Can you give me an example of one that stands out to you or that you really were like, “I don’t know about this,” but it turned out?

Prieto: Well, there’s the moment after the explosion of Rita and Bill [Smith]’s house. We go back to the house. Ernest now is going to deliver the news of what happened. He knew that something like this was going to happen, but he didn’t expect the extent of it. And now he’s really feeling the confusion and the guilt. So the shot that Scorsese had designed was going in through the doorway and then the porch, going into the house and finding the family, finding Mollie and the kids and the nanny maybe in the living room. So I prepared for that. I lit that, and I lit the living room, the dining room, and so when we’re getting ready for it, he asks. Ernest was there, Mollie — everybody was there. He asked her, “So where would you be, Mollie?” In this case we use the names of the characters. And she says that I‘d probably be in a basement. And we pivoted and that became the shot. So now we go into the house through the living room, dining room, into the kitchen, and the door opens and we see down the stairs into the basement. And it became a very powerful image. Just composition-wise, seeing her down there and the depth of that and also the feeling of vulnerability and of them being in this refuge and then seeing Ernest up there, it became very powerful. And that just came out of what she was feeling at the moment.

Villarreal: Is there a tell when Martin is like, “I like where this is going.” Does he have a quirk that lets you know we’re on to something?

Prieto: I mean, it’s just an energy, right? You have a feeling that he’s in the zone, and lots of times it’ll be his laughter. Certainly not in that scene that I just described, but when he laughs you know that he’s happy, and that things are working and he relaxes and it’s really wonderful when that starts happening. I mean, certainly there was a lot of laughter on “Wolf of Wall Street.”

Villarreal: Right, right, right.

Prieto: But there was also tension, every day in the morning, especially, we’re all like, “What’s going to happen today?” And once it starts flowing, then he laughs.

Villarreal: I imagine there’s a lot of intimacy that develops between you and the actors, because you’re watching their performances in such a close way. It’s private and intimate what you’re seeing. I’m curious seeing someone like Robert [De Niro] and Leonardo [DiCaprio] through the years or even lately for the first time. What struck you in seeing their performances so closely?

Prieto: Yeah, certainly with DiCaprio and De Niro, we’ve done other projects beforehand. And seeing their transformation, first of all, the physical transformation, that was startling. Of course, we shot tests and you kind of know what’s going to happen roughly. But then on set, when the environment is there and the production design, the lighting, it’s pretty amazing. And also to witness their process, how they get into the characters is fascinating and how it starts building. And with Lily [Gladstone], I didn’t know her. And to find what Mollie became and see her also find that, it really transformed the way we photographed her. We realized how she was a center of gravity of all this, just the way she was doing it. So we started framing her more centered, literally more symmetrical frames, and it wasn’t really planned that way, but that’s the way it evolved. And just responding from her performance.

Villarreal: What’s it like watching Robert in action as somebody that really admired “Raging Bull?” Are you still [calling him] Mr. De Niro or do you feel a comfortability there?

Prieto: Still Mr. De Niro. But I feel definitely a level of comfort. And we’ve also coincided in some of the Q&As and that sort of thing. It’s still, to me, amazing to be friendly with these people that have been my heroes for so long. In fact, when we were doing “The Irishman,” it was my birthday and my wife, she got a poster of “Raging Bull” and had them all sign it and [Joe] Pesci and De Niro. It was one of my treasured belongings.

Villarreal: Well, something that’s so impressive about the work that you do is you can go from something that’s stark and haunting, like “Killers of the Flower Moon,” to something that’s so expressive and bright and vibrant, like “Barbie.” Is the contrast of that something that you like exploring? Or is it jarring to go from something like that to something like that?

Prieto: Well, I think that it’s like life itself; there’s so many different emotions that we go through. So many different moments. And I love being able to explore that through cinema as well. We can be very sad one moment and joyful and laughing even the next moment. And having the opportunity to work with these incredible directors and photograph such diverse worlds and points of view. And for me, getting to understand or trying to understand how a director sees this story that we’re working on, and then me becoming those eyes in a way. How do I translate the way they see it, or the way I understand that they’re seeing it, to the screen? It’s kind of my responsibility to put everybody’s work onto the screen. So I really actually enjoy it very much, doing different genres and jumping from one thing to something radically different.

Villarreal: What was the gap between those? Is it hard to transition out of one to the other, or does it sort of reset right away?

Prieto: It was pretty immediate. I was in “Killers of the Flower Moon” and some of the weekends before we started shooting, I was doing Zooms with Greta Gerwig and talking about the look of it. So I had to switch to that. Because I was so obviously in Osage County and then, “OK. So what does Barbie Land look like?” So it was a little jarring. And finally I had to tell Greta, “Okay, now we have to stop talking about ‘Barbie,’ and I’m sorry, I have to concentrate on this. And you’ll see when I’m doing ‘Barbie,’ that’s all that’s going to be in my mind. But right now, it’s ‘Killers of the Flower Moon.’” And then I finish that and almost immediately, I think, flew to London to start prepping “Barbie” and, it felt easy, actually, because I already had it sort of thought out. And it’s been that way most of my career. And I guess I’m kind of used to it too.

Villarreal: Does the collaboration with Greta feel any different than the collaboration with Martin? How are they similar or different in their work process?

Prieto: Yeah, it’s very different. Every director has a complete different set of dogmas, if you may, or things that have to be a certain way. And I love navigating that. I think the common part of them is just the joy and love of cinema in general. They love movies and they also love making movies. So that makes work very enjoyable because it’s not just the work. It’s not something that I’m going to get paid for this, it’s a job. It’s something that they’re passionate about. I feel very fortunate to work with them. Also, there’s just this thing about noise that’s very different. Scorsese is very sensitive to noise. Especially in the morning when he arrives, things have to be quiet so that he can concentrate with the actor to look at the monitor. Everybody has to be totally quiet. And Greta is the opposite. She likes noise, she actually likes it. She’s told me that when she’s writing, for example, she has to be in a cafeteria or in a place where there’s noise. And that way she can concentrate. So it’s really interesting how both ways work and it’s fine.

Villarreal: How are you as a director? You’ve just done your first feature film. Talk to me about that and what you discovered about yourself as a director, and also how you collaborate with a cinematographer.

Prieto: Well, I discovered that I’m pretty intense, but I do bring many other things that I’ve learned from all the directors that I’ve worked with, unconsciously some of the shot design ideas and some of the explorations I’ve done before with other directors. In fact, I showed a cut of of the film, “Pedro Páramo,” to Scorsese the other day and that was scary. But I really enjoyed it. And I didn’t even mention to them there’s some shots in the movie that are certainly inspired on things that that he’s done now and they’re homogeneous too. So I asked him and he didn’t even realize he was involved in the film. But he gave me some very, very specific editorial notes, which were awesome, like, “Oh, you should keep this shot 20 frames long.” Things like that and so I did it, of course.

Villarreal: Before I let you go, I know film for you was something that took hold at a very early age with monster films and you and your brother creating stuff. I’m curious, can you tell me what’s that like? Can you still picture that image that first captured your attention on film?

Prieto: The skeleton fight in “Jason and the Argonauts.” You’ll have to look it up, OK? It’s incredible. And that, for me, was just magic and cinema. And I knew even as a child how they did it because I was already doing clay monsters and stop motion. And it was stop motion. I kind of knew rear screen projection, how do they put these skeletons with the people? And it was just magical.

Villarreal: I love that. Well, Rodrigo, thanks so much for taking the time. It was a pleasure speaking.

Prieto: Likewise. Thank you so much.

Villarreal: Coming up after the break, Shawn’s interview with Diane Warren.

Finnie: Welcome to “The Envelope.” My name is Shawn Finnie, and today’s guest is the Diane Warren. She is a pioneer of music and architect of music in cinema and culture, and someone I love very, very much. Fifteen nominations, seven consecutive years. And this year she is nominated for her song “Fire Inside” from “Flamin’ Hot.” Welcome, Diane Warren.

Diane Warren: Great to see you, Shawn. A pioneer though? I came in a covered wagon.

Finnie: No, you are a pioneer. You’re making it happen. But Diane, when we think about these big stats and all these records in history that you’ve made and broken, I can’t think about that without young Diane.

Warren: I still feel like I’m young Diane.

Finnie: No, you are young Diane. But young Diane in Van Nuys growing up.

Warren: Right.

Finnie: What does all of this mean now for you? [The] Diane, who was watching the Oscars with her family? [The] Diane watching “Born Free” and seeing a film for the first time. Talk to me about that.

Warren: I mean, the fact that I was that kid, every year watching it and crying when I saw and heard songs and movies like “Born Free” and the fact that this was my dream to to be a songwriter. I didn’t know anybody. I’m from Van Nuys. My dad sold insurance. But it’s kind of cool that the song this year is “The Fire Inside,” because it is the fire inside that drives you. And I had that from an early age. I had that fire to be a songwriter and to succeed in it and to be great in it. And it wasn’t just a dream, I worked my ass off every day. When I was about 14, I was like, “I’m not doing anything else.” And I got straight Ds and Fs in school. There’s a guitar out there, 12-string guitar, that my dad bribed me with. If I got nothing less than Cs, he’d get me a Martin 12-string guitar. I did get nothing less than a C and right back to Fs and Ds right after that. But I got my guitar, it was all good. I just put in the work, I would read Billboard every day, every week. My dad got me a subscription. So it was always about music and songs and I always loved movies. So it’s such a natural thing to do.

Finnie: When did you understand the music and the business and film, that intersection between?

Warren: I don’t know if I ever understood it; it’s just something that kind of happened. My first nominated song was a movie called “Mannequin.” It was one of those guilty pleasures. It was kind of cool to write that. Well, actually, my first hit really was “Rhythm of the Night,” which was from Berry Gordy’s “The Last Dragon.” My first big hit happened to be from a movie. So it kind of did all come together. And then I realized I was good at it. My dad said he’d support me if I went to college. I went to Cal State Northridge and I took nothing but film classes because I could just watch movies. I wasn’t really a music major. I would just break into the piano rooms and teach myself piano. But I would watch all these movies and then maybe subliminally, that kind of taught me because I was hearing songs, I was hearing music, and I had to sit there. I think I was prepared, a lot of this it’s dream meets the work meets the preparation, and then you create yourself. You create your own luck from that.

Finnie: And one thing you’ve always not been shy about is just talking about the hard work. People are just like, “It’s hard work.”

Warren: I’m the hardest worker that I know.

Finnie: Yeah.

Warren: I show up, I’m there at 9:00. I go to work every day. I try to take part of Sunday off, but I love my job so it’s not like I hate going to work.

Finnie: And you’re moved by inspiration when you feel it.

Warren: I was working on a song right before I got here, and I’m on the bridge of the song. I have to go back to it after. But I love it, it’s like you have a puzzle. When you start a song, there’s the perfect version of that song. You just have to find it and that’s kind of the fun.

Finnie: I know that when people think, “Oh, nominated 15 times?” They think it probably doesn’t even excite you anymore.

Warren: Are you kidding me?

Finnie: I know for you it is still. Just talk about [what it’s like] when it’s nominations morning.

Warren: Well we’ll talk about nominations the night before. So a bunch of my friends come over. We just have pizza, a bunch of people come by and the crazy ones stay up all night. I know people go, “Yeah, I go to sleep.” You didn’t go to sleep. Let’s just keep it real, man. You didn’t sleep at all. If you had a potential of being nominated, you were up like I was. I’m not cool enough to lie, so I stay up all night and I’m so nervous. And we’re just trying to [do stuff like], “OK, let’s eat. OK, let’s watch a movie.” And then when it gets to be about 4:00. “Oh it’s in an hour. It’s a half hour.” Literally, you’re counting the minutes. So I love it. And honestly, for me, that’s when I win. I already won.

Finnie: Talk to me about that because I know you put that in your speech too.

Warren: I mean it’s from my heart. There’s only five songs chosen every year. There’s hundreds of songs and movies every year. We’re not the Grammys. Oscars are not the Grammys. You watch the Grammys, you’re going to see 30 song categories. Oscars have one [and] hundreds of songs. If you look to see who’s in the music branch of voters, the best of the best of the best, not in America, but on the planet.

Finnie: In the world.

Warren: In the world, yes. So they’re the best composers or the best songwriters, the best music editors, or they’re just the best at what they do. They chose me, they chose my song; I won already. That’s respect from people I respect, and that’s everything. Now, with my honorary Oscar. [He’d] like a friend, it kind of bums me out. I’m not enough for him.

Finnie: I mean, I want to talk about that because I know that for you, your process is different for every song, every project. But specifically talking about “Flamin’ Hot,” when did you know, when did you decide at this point of your career, “I want to do this, I want to jump in this?”

Warren: Well, if it’s something that I think I can do something great for, I get involved. DeVon Franklin and I worked on “Breakthrough.” I did the song “I’m Standing With You,” and I remember we were in Nashville with Chrissy Metz, and we were in the car and he goes, “Yeah, I’m working on this movie about the guy who came up with Flamin’ Hot Cheetos.” And he goes, “It’s a janitor. He told me the whole story.” And I was really intrigued. And he goes, “I’m trying to get Eva Longoria the job.” And then I found out Eva Longoria got the job and she moved into my building. So I would see her, I go, “So I want to do the song. I wanna do the song.” She would go, “There’s not a script yet, we’re still working on it.” “Okay, tell me when.” I was kind of annoying her and stuff and then finally there was something to see. She goes, “I really want to show it to you.” And I saw a rough cut of the movie, and I just loved it. I wish it got nominated for more stuff, especially for Eva.

Finnie: Such an incredible job for this to be her first film, directorial debut, an incredible story.

Warren: It’s interesting that my first nominated song was “Nothing’s Gonna Stop Us Now.” And this song, “The Fire Inside,” is nothing’s going to stop me now. Nothing’s going to stop you now, when you have that fire. I saw the rough cut of the movie and I wrote down the title, “The Fire Inside.” That’s a really good title because it’s the double [meaning].

Finnie: Flamin’ hot, the fire inside.

Warren: The fire inside you get when you eat them. But what the fire inside is, is passion. That song is about passion. And that’s what I took away from this movie, that here’s somebody that came from nothing. He had everything against him, and rose to the heights. He rose and created like a multibillion-dollar product by sheer will and sheer chutzpah. And I related to him. And so as I’m writing the song for this movie, I’m like, “Well, I’m kind of writing about me too.” So it was a really easy song to write.

Finnie: Which I think is great because I know you’ve also said, sometimes every song that you write is not always about you, right? It’s about your imagination. This one is so connected to the beginning of your Oscar journey and then to this one. What have you learned about yourself from that first nomination to 15th?

Warren: I just learned that no one can stop me or that when I believe in something, whether it’s a song or something, my belief is fierce. It’s a fire. I have the fire inside. It’s what drove me to be successful. It’s what drives me every day. And if you talk to Eva, she goes, “Yeah, we’re all Richard Montañez.” We’re here. You created yourself. We created ourselves because we have a dream and we have that fire. And we worked to make it real. So this story, back to the movie. This really, really, really touched me. I really related to it. And yes, I’m writing a song for the movie, but as I’m writing the song, I’m going, “Hmm. Nothing can hold you back. No one can kill your vibe when you got the fire inside.”

[“Clip from “Flamin’ Hot”]

Finnie: Diane, when do you know a song is done?

Warren: It tells me, I feel it.

Finnie: Talk me through that a little bit. I’m curious.

Warren: You know, when I’m writing something, a song tells me. I’m rewriting while I’m writing. So I never really go back and change a lot of stuff. And this, the song I knew had to be reggaeton. It wasn’t going to be the big ballad. This song had to move. So I programmed a cool drum beat that I loved and I kind of came up with that chorus really fast, “Nothing can hold you back. No one can kill your vibe. You’ve got the fire inside. Oh, you got to own this life. When you got the fire inside.” I’m like, “Ooof, I got something here.” I loved it. I’m like, “Okay, how do I get there? So the first line was, “Oh, you got places to go. You’re not going there slow.” It’s like, “Okay, get that opening line.” Opening lines are super important to me.

Finnie: So when you get the opening line, it helps you kind of narrate it close to the story.

Warren: Yeah, I kind of knew where I was going. I knew what the story was. But people tell me, they wake up to the song. It’s their wake-up song.

Finnie: In the gym. It goes hard in the gym by the way.

Warren: That’s what I’ve heard, I love that.

Finnie: And then talk to me about your collaboration with Becky G.

Warren: So when I do a song for a movie, I’m a casting director. So that artist has to be obviously authentic to the song. You have to be able to sing it. Which [Becky G is] also authentic to the movie. She’s also Mexican. And she also came from nothing. She lived in South L.A. and became a star because she had the fire inside. As a kid, she just worked and worked. I wasn’t in the studio with Becky until she was done with the vocal. And I remember going to the studio and being blown away. There’s a couple of notes that I kind of wanted to change, and I’m glad she didn’t change them because what she did was cooler. And I was so excited and Eva was on a Zoom and DeVon was there. We were all listening and it was fun.

Finnie: Your luck has not run out and I don’t see it running out. No, it’s not running out anytime soon. And I’m curious because you are somebody who has said I’m an opportunist in the most positive way, and Richard is an opportunist. Just talk me through that, because I feel like this film really centers around him. When he called the CEO and he’s like, “I’m taking this opportunity to tell you my idea.”

Warren: Being an opportunist in the right way, that means grabbing every opportunity. It might not come again and it’s there. It’s up to you. If you lose that opportunity, it’s your fault that you lost the opportunity. Yet if you take it, you grab it and you run with it, you never know what can happen. Beautiful things happen from that.

Finnie: You said that when you were younger growing up, that you saw a record and you saw the name in parentheses. And you wanted to be the name.

Warren: Yeah, [Gerry] Goffin and [Carole] King on “Up on the Roof.” And I saw that, I still remember I want to be in the parentheses. I don’t want to be the singer. Well good, because I suck. But I don’t want to be the artist.

Finnie: But your name is no longer in parentheses. Your name is a standalone name.

Warren: I mean, I don’t know, but thank you.

Finnie: 15 Oscar nominations. Seven consecutive years.

Warren: That is pretty cool.

Finnie: An honorary Oscar?

Warren: Yeah, that was awesome. That was the best night of my life.

Finnie: You are continuing.

Warren: That was with Cher. Cher, who doesn’t do a lot for a lot of people, she did that for me.

Finnie: With the fire inside.

Warren With the fire inside. You got the fire inside. You want to hear a bit of it?

Finnie: I want to hear a bit of it.

Warren: Want to hear it sung really bad?

Finnie: I want to hear it sung really well.

Warren: Well if you want to hear a verse and chorus of of “The Fire Inside” sung really badly, here you go.

Warren:
Oh, oh, you got places to go
You’re not going there slow
Oh, no, no, no, no, no
They will tell you you’re crazy
They will call you a fool
They will think they can stop you
But there’s no stopping you

They can’t put out what you got inside you
No way to put out that flame

Nothing can hold you back
No one can kill your vibe
When you got the fire inside (That’s right)
When you got the fire inside
Oh, you’re gonna own this life (That’s right)
‘Cause you got the fire inside
‘Cause you got the fire, you got the fire

Oh, the fire
Oh, the fire
‘Cause you got the firе inside
‘Cause you got the firе inside

Finnie: Coming up next, Mark’s interview with Justin Triet.

Olsen: For The Los Angeles Times and “The Envelope,” I’m Mark Olsen. I’m here today with Justine Triet, director and co-writer of the film “Anatomy of a Fall.” Justine, thank you so much for joining us today.

Justine Triet: Thank you for inviting me.

Olsen: It’s been not even quite a year yet since “Anatomy of a Fall” first premiered at Cannes, and in that time you won the Palme d’Or at Cannes. It has been nominated for 11 César Awards, five Oscars, seven BAFTAs. You won two Golden Globes. What has this year been like?

Triet: It was really, really new for me. Everything was new. I traveled a lot. I was always in different countries and I think it’s really, really amazing. Yes, all the things for the movie, of course. And now for me, it’s not my movie. It belongs to the audience. So yes, it’s fantastic.

Olsen: Why do you think audiences have responded to “Anatomy of a Fall” in the way that they have? Why this movie?

Triet: The reciprocity between women and men, I think it’s really the core of the movie, and it’s so universal and so contemporary in a way because we are obsessed by this really simple question. Just how we can live together? This thing is really important in my movie. And I flip the genre, the woman and the man and the code. And I think it’s for the spectator and it’s a provocation for me to put that woman in that situation because all the time it’s the men.

[Clip from “Anatomy of a Fall”]

Olsen: But do you think when you were making the film, in particular, when you and Arthur [Harari] were writing the film — you wrote it with your partner — did you realize that you were exploring something so elemental that was going to tap into something inside of people in such a just a really primal way?

Triet: Yes, in a way. You know, sometimes when we wrote this movie, we were blind in a way because we had just some intuitions. It’s like a painter, you know? But we knew that the core would be the couple in all these things. But I think we didn’t have all the keys before. I said to Arthur, “Okay, I want you to do another movie about couples, but I want to really have the time to dive in all this craziness.” Now, the only thing that we were very blind to, just because we didn’t realize, we were a couple and we were doing just a crazy script of other couples. We were a little blind in a way, because I think if we knew exactly, maybe we would be so afraid of this. Because it put their hands in a very strange, weird, bath. I don’t know. We have to live with our monsters after. It’s not the end at the end, you know? So after, we dream about, we made some nightmares. So sometimes I would ask why we are doing this. Maybe we just want to make a comedy again because I love to write comedies. And I used to do it before. So sometimes I was afraid of this movie. But at the end it was so beautiful. And now it’s a fairy tale, of course, because we share everything. So it’s not our crazy baby.

Olsen: Because your films up until now, taken together, they’re kind of in different genres. Each is sort of in its own style. But the thing that I think does connect the films is that they’re all essentially exploring just what it’s like to be a woman in the modern world. Does that sound right for you? Is that the thing that you think you’ve been exploring in your work if you take it all together?

Triet: Yes. And to show in a way, how women are complex and to not reduce them to just one thing or another to just do, “Oh, it’s so complicated to have babies and to have to work, to switch in on this place or this space.” So yeah, of course, it’s always different. There’s this famous sentence from François Truffaut in France who said all the time, “I’m doing a movie against the previous one.” It’s really important for me this sentence because I feel very close to this all the time when I’m finished something, I’m very tough with myself. I criticize myself. And I want you just to dive in a novel genre in a way to find something new. But, of course, the topics are similar.

Olsen: As I’ve heard you talking about the movie, I’ve always been so struck by when you’re talking about Sandra Hüller’s character, that you did not want her to seduce the other characters in the movie, or in some ways, the audience watching the movie. And I’ve heard you use this phrase that you did not want her to be a perfect victim. Can you talk a little bit more about that and what you mean by that and what you liked about having your main character be in some ways so remote to the audience?

Triet: It’s an obsession since a long time ago because my first short movie, people said, “Aww your main character is not sympathetic.” So it’s long, it’s a long story for me. But I grew up with all these men’s lead parts. And sometimes they were sympathetic, sometimes not. And I felt so close to them, you know, and I think for this woman, it was really important to say, “She’s not perfect. She’s not a perfect mother.” It’s a paradox, in a way, because she’s really only graspable in the way in the movie. But in the same way she’s playing this as “I’m sincere. There is no filter between you, me and you.” And because she’s a storyteller and she’s a writer, you can imagine that she could manipulate you.

[Clip from “Anatomy of a Fall”]

Triet: You don’t know if she’s just like you and me. Or if she’s really good at telling stories.

Olsen: I’ve heard you talk as well about how you’ve grown increasingly to want a sense of imperfection and a sense of almost chaos in your movies and from the performers. Can you talk a little bit more about that? What is it that you like about not trying to make the movies more perfect, but in some ways trying to bring out the imperfections in the movie?

Triet: When we were searching for money and the funds to build all the things, it was the first time in my life that all the people were very, very happy with the script. I don’t speak about the cast, but the script, everyone was all very happy of this. So when I came on set, I was very afraid of this. Because I think when you are really good with a script, it could be very dangerous because after, you just do the things and it could be very cold. And it was not so easy because sometimes my team was like, “I don’t understand. Why do you want to not do a perfect picture?” And I was like, “Because I think we have to find the charm, you know?” And Sandra was so special because she was so involved. So I was like, “We have to find a way to create some accidents and not to create but sometimes to grab all the accidents.” Sometimes I was like, “Okay, we are going in editing, we are going to take the most ugly takes.” Sometimes it creates something, you know?

Olsen: You won the Palme d’Or at Cannes, you gave a speech in which you spoke about the protests that had been happening in France at the time against the Macron government. You talked about uncovering funding of films and cultural production, in particular for younger and emerging filmmakers. What made you want to give that speech? I mean, you really took that moment, you grabbed that platform. What made you want to make those comments at that moment?

Triet: Because I think that when I started in the business, it was not the same world. And it was much more easy for people like me. I did not do classical school to make that job. And I think my speech was really for the youth in the younger generation. And to say, “Please I had the privilege to start in a different world. Please, keep all these things for the young generation.” It was very important for me. And after this a lot of people said to me, “Thank you so much for thinking about us because all the stories of France is built on the idea of to not be forced to just do a movie to just win money.”

Olsen: But were you surprised by the response to your speech? Because at least from the news reports here in America, it was very controversial. There was some amount of backlash against you. Some people even think that this is why “Anatomy of a Fall” was not selected to represent France for the international feature at the Academy Awards.

Triet: Yes, it’s really weird. And now people talk. So I think yes, of course it was obviously, a backlash, as you say.

Olsen Do you regret it? Or do you feel like you would say —.

Triet: Never. Because I think the most precious thing for me is to be free to talk. I’m an artist. I’m not a politician. And if I cannot speak like this in a democracy, I don’t know. It’s not possible [anywhere]. It’s my power. It’s my superpower. So I’m so happy and I can not regret this. I was not super happy of the answer, of course, because I would have loved to represent France but I think it’s not good for their image now. A lot of American people criticized the French reaction. So I think at the end, it’s a happy ending in a way, I don’t know. We will see at the Oscars.

Olsen: It was announced that you’d signed with the American agency CAA. And I’m so curious, what’s next for you? I mean, do you want to make a film fully in English with American actors? Signing with an American agency, what does that mean to you? What do you plan to do next?

Triet: I would love to work with American actors and maybe to mix with French actors. I don’t know exactly. It depends on the movie, but I would love it, of course. I did two movies with mixing. So I’m learning different languages and I love so much to do this. It’s a fairy tale for me, in a way, to just have the capacity of meeting them. And, of course, to maybe dream about a project with them. But I’m sorry, I don’t have right now the next project.

Olsen: I know we can’t wait to find out what exactly will come next. So thank you for joining us.

Finnie: Thank you for listening and watching. Please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We’ll be back next week with more to come around the Oscars.