When it comes to her sonic world, Oklou, the musician born Marylou Mayniel, is a purist. There’s a real romanticism at the heart of her music: “It feels like the ultimate goal is this quest for the most sincere thing you could ever do,” she says. Raised in the languorous French countryside, Mayniel spent her youth playing cello and piano, and after surviving classical conservatory training, took the show on the road to Paris to birth the first Oklou EP, a sort of pastorale for the hyperpop era. The ten years since have found the singer in mixtape mode with 2020’s Galore, in close collaboration with Casey MQ, Sega Bodega, and Shygirl, and on tour with Caroline Polachek and Flume. Still, the hype was kept relatively underground—that is, until last month, when she dropped her most major project yet. On choke enough, her debut fell-length, Mayniel’s musical intelligence stands out on 13 tracks that keep true to the lush, drumless ambience of her beginnings. “Maybe like you, I’m a lyrics-last kind of person,” said producer A.G. Cook, another collaborator of hers, when the two got on a call to talk French idealism, YouTube rabbit holes, and her biggest project to date: impending motherhood.—MEKALA RAJAGOPAL
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A.G. COOK: Hey, what’s up?
OKLOU: How are you?
COOK: Pretty good. It’s been a funny few weeks. I’m excited to get back to actually making music rather than just celebrating and doing awards things with Charli. How about you? I know you’re mid-tour right now.
OKLOU: The tour was right after the release, so I didn’t have time to observe how the music is doing and take in the vibes.
COOK: That’s nice though, because releasing an album can be really anticlimactic, especially in the streaming era. You work on it for ages, then it’s just some tiny artwork in a square. And your album in particular is having a sort of afterlife where it’s more than just the sum of its parts, it’s having a whole world around it. Your last live show for Galore was like Galore plus. It was the bridge into all this new stuff. I feel like live [performance] is a big part of what you do.
OKLOU: I just wish I had a bit more time to rehearse, because it was too fast.
COOK: But it all looks cool. So I got to know you a while ago and I’ve seen the bits of choke enough come together. I remember you playing me a version of the title track back in 2022 and you were like, “Okay, the album’s going to have no drums. This is the pinnacle of what we’re doing.” And maybe like you, I’m a lyrics-last kind of person, unless I really have something. But when I listened to the final lyrics, I realized they’re about that time when we were rehearsing for my show at the Greek Theatre and you were driving us around these brutal L.A. freeways while we listened to the instrumental demo and you were mumbling something over it. I remember being kind of hypnotized by it and thinking, “Hopefully we won’t crash while listening to this demo.” Right?
OKLOU: Yeah, I remember those trips vividly. It was this one night drive that was pretty insane, because there was a huge full moon between the skyscrapers downtown. When it was time to write the lyrics, it was exactly the feeling of the music itself and that moment.
COOK: And the concept of the album from a musical perspective was drumless. I remember working on a couple tracks and it was like the synth was going to act like a drum, or the melody was doing the percussion. Even though you did break that limitation, I feel like the spirit of it is still about that. The drums are very fleeting. It’s quite cheeky in a way. Was that actually the guiding principle, or did you become more chill about it?
OKLOU: I had to accept not going further with that concept for the simple reason that concepts and ideas are nice, but music is stronger. If a track needs drums or bass, I have to go with it, because my goal is ultimately to achieve the track, not the concept. The most important thing is to really follow the instinct, then you figure out how to put things together.
COOK: But there’s a nice tension from being drumless and then not, pushing and pulling with that idea. Breaking the rule sometimes makes you think about it more. I make an effort to listen to albums front to back in one big chunk, and this album worked really well like that, with the interludes and the placement of “blade bird” at the end. How precise are you with the final tracklist?
OKLOU: It’s very important and takes a lot of time, and maybe I pay too much attention to it, but it’s one of my favorite moments. I think about the tracklist before the songs are finished, because it takes me so much time to finish a song that I need to know where I’m going and which demos to finish. For choke enough, I went in so many directions and felt that tension with the drums and with the writing process and my choices of what to talk about. I had a lot of different demos I was attached to. It was tricky compared to Galore, which made total sense.
COOK: With Galore, did you just have songs that felt like a record?
OKLOU: Yeah, Galore was super organic and choke enough was different, because I was like, “Okay, let’s do album one.”
COOK: I always forget it’s album one. That distinction is useful when you’re making it. It’s the lack of preciousness, but choke enough doesn’t sound too labored over either. I’m really curious about “blade bird.” It’s a really fun track to have last because it’s so direct, a succinct pop song with a big chorus. Was that intentional?
OKLOU: I’m happy you say that, because “blade bird” was one of the hardest to insert. Putting it at the end was the only option, for it to be the ending credits vibe. I wasn’t necessarily attached to it being on the album, even though I love that track so much. It was a collective decision, let’s put it that way. The track is so pop, it would probably take a lot of effort to have it exist in some other form.
COOK: It’s similar to Caroline [Polachek] putting “So Hot You’re Hurting My Feelings” almost at the end of Pang. She was like, “This isn’t very Pang,” and everyone was like, “But it’s such a good song, and it’s so important.” I love that kind of tension, and putting this catchy banger right at the end, there’s something really cool about that. It’s so different for my own A.G. Cook albums, because I sort of don’t take my artist career as seriously. I can set arbitrary rules and A&R myself. But I’m glad “blade bird” and “So Hot” ended up on the albums, because it makes them feel connected to a world of real pop music in a cool way.
OKLOU: Yeah. It’s part of the overall experience. When I play “blade bird” live, I’m actually glad it’s on the album.
COOK: You have such a strong, identifiable chord sound. Obviously, you’re building up a visual world, but even if you strip it all away to the bones of your music, I can tell it’s your style. It also feels identifiably French to me. I can connect it to French classical music, or even harpsichord or choral music, let alone all the typical references like Daft Punk. I’m not trying to lump all French music together, but there’s a big confidence in the melody and chord progressions. When I did Britpop, I tried to identify what feels very British about being a producer who does PC music and having fun with this fake idea. I know you have a bit of a classical background, but do you ever feel aware of being a French artist in that sense?
OKLOU: It’s hard for me to identify how much my classical background has trained my brain to be sensitive to certain chord progressions, harmonies, and melodies. But recently, I heard somebody say something about movies being very French in their romanticism. And I was like, “Oh, that is so freaking true.” It goes beyond just the medium of French artists, but is also a mindset, a way to experience life with passion and fantasy. I don’t know exactly how it’s connected to the music, but that’s the most relevant thing I could say.
COOK: There’s less cynicism compared to British stuff. In France, fantasy is done in a really heartfelt, genuine way. It’s like, “I wanted to make this movie because it interests me,” whereas I feel like in the UK we have to come up with fake reasons for why we’re doing it.
OKLOU: That’s a real thing. With my artist friends, it feels like the ultimate goal is this quest for purity, for the most sincere thing you could ever do. I’m not saying other cultures don’t have that, but—
COOK: It’s an idealistic sincerity. I was thinking about it recently when David Lynch died and everyone was rewatching his stuff. It was only possible to make Mulholland Drive and Inland Empire because the French studios saved it. Even though they feel very American, the Americans had completely abandoned it and a French studio came in like, “We’ll give you $8 million to finish your dream movie.” He was actually understood by French culture. I was rewatching Mulholland Drive at a similar time to listening to choke enough and it worked well together. Are you interested in doing film soundtracks? Have you done anything like that?
OKLOU: I’ve worked on small projects so far, but more like video games. I really enjoyed it. I’d love to spend more time working with images. I’ve actually been working on an animation movie for two years, actually. That’s how I see myself in 10 years.
COOK: Out in a cabin somewhere with a film projector, making a soundtrack. Your music is super visual. I’m curious, how do you find yourself listening to other people’s music? Do you get lost in streaming and weird playlists? Or when you’re working on stuff, are you not listening to anything?
OKLOU: I’ve found myself very deceived by algorithms. I feel profound sadness and nostalgia about YouTube, even though I think my own attitude towards content has also changed over the years. So when I’m working on a project, I don’t listen to music much, especially towards the end.
COOK: It’s impossible. You go crazy.
OKLOU: I lose all confidence, thinking, “This is so good, it’s better.” When I do listen while writing, I go towards things I know. I need to find ways to enjoy music without the risk of comparing myself, even though I’m so curious about it, and I’ve been so nourished by witnessing the evolution of music on the internet.
COOK: The algorithm has become more aggressive. It used to be this kind of rabbit hole of suggesting similar unknown stuff, and now it just shows you whatever has 10 million views.
OKLOU: Yeah, it’s a shame.
COOK: People have talked about your stuff feeling nostalgic to that era of the internet. I have that as well because the first wave of PC music was online. But I’ve seen people really excited by your album feeling like the early internet, like an album that doesn’t give everything so easily. I’ve noticed a lot of people, music producers and songwriters, getting really granular about what you’re doing, especially with the production, writing, tone, or nostalgia. Have you noticed that more than with Galore?
OKLOU: Well, that’s what I was saying earlier, that I haven’t had much time to investigate. I’ve read a couple tweets and done maybe two interviews where journalists went into specific details about the visuals or music, which is the most fun thing to talk about.
COOK: It feels relatively understood. In a time with less music journalism and discourse, there seems to be a desire to get really close to the album. It’s been fun to see. So you’re going to take a break from touring to have a baby, then come back to the album. Somehow that feels on brand for you. You have the balance of pastoral and digital, real and imaginary; even the way you work is with close collaborators you’ve known for a long time. And with the lead single being “family and friends,” it seems completely appropriate.
OKLOU: Yeah, because there’s no other way to do it. The fact that I’m going to become a mother in a few months, it wasn’t planned. It just happened. And because I’ve always known that I wanted to experience that life, there was no way I wasn’t going to follow that path. Obviously, it was a big discussion. We discussed postponing the album release for a year later, but I really didn’t want to do that. Even with a baby coming, both things make total sense together. It feels very natural and organic to experience them at the same time. Neither is overshadowing the other in my mind. I’m not like, “Oh, now being a mother is going to be the role of my life.” It’s so not that. I don’t feel any stress about not being a “free artist” anymore. It’s good so far.
COOK: It’s really cool hearing you speak about it. It’s the same intuition that’s led you through these last few years and the whole record. The album and kid will be siblings in a way. Okay, one wacky final question: do you ever wish you could invent a completely new instrument to get a sound in your head, even if it would take years of development?
OKLOU: I’m too lazy, and also too aware of how many sounds I still don’t know.
COOK: Yeah, the realm of music tech, synths, plugins is so vast, so no one has mastered it all.
OKLOU: I’m already so overwhelmed. When I have a crush on a synth or plugin, it takes me years to really do what I want with it. Like the soft bouncy synth in “god’s chariots” and “lurk” has been my favorite for a few years. My path is slow. When I like a sound, I go along with it for a while.
COOK: Explore it for years. I’m probably the opposite. I’ll milk something for a week, then get bored and move on. Okay, I think we’ve got a lot to edit down. I’ll probably see you tomorrow.
OKLOU: I’m so glad you guys are coming. See you tomorrow.
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